Originally by: Cre'tal

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Ah thank you. It's been a long while since I've been in an NPC corp, and I was always under the assumption that it was a 10% tax. Well, then, good show, CCP. Adding a NPC tax is a great idea AFAIC.

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Originally by: Tippia

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And what effect is that?

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Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

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It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: Tippia

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And what effect is that?

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Again, properly read the thread:

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

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It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation

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So you're saying that it will actually work exactly the way CCP is hoping to.

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for.

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Originally by: Tippia

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And what effect is that?

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Originally by: Tippia

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Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 15:11:17

Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Do you have some reading diability ?

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So you're saying that a corp started by a player to avoid being in an NPC corp is, in fact, not a player corp?

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Originally by: Tippia

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stuff

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Originally by: Neesa Corrinne

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All CCP needs to do in order to fix the 100,000 1 man player corps that would soon rise up after this change is:

1) 10 Players must join a new corporation within 48 hours of it forming for it to remain a viable corporation or it will dissolve.

2) Those first 10 players must be active training accounts.

This way, the new corporations won't simply be 10 alts and a mission runner, and the EVE universe also won't suddenly be flooded with thousands of new corps. A good side effect of this is that all of those "holder" alts that have been holding famous corp names for a couple years now will dissolve too, leaving those names open to be reused.

Lastly, The next patch is shaping up to be one of the best patches in EVE since the Trinity patch gave us shiny new graphics.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: zombiedeadhead

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Imo, the idea that chars in NPC corps will leave and form 1 man corps is just ridiculous.

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Especially to avoid a 3% decrease in their mission income.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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And how ridiculous the idea that they'd even leave npc corps and join real player corps because of a 3% decreaase in income. THANK YOU. idea does not achieve the goal stated = idea is a bad one. solution that doesnt solve the problem.

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So now you're saying that people won't leave?! Make up you mind!

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Originally by: Tippia

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Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 16:06:36

Originally by: Julian Lynq

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i explained myself well in the above posts. i am not gonna play such forum games with you.

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You still haven't explained how they'll fail to "encourage" people to join PC corps ù you know, the stated goal.

edit: wrong word.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Jowen Datloran

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Bah, this discussion is boring now.

It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes.

Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Jowen Datloran

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Bah, this discussion is boring now.

It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes.

Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same.

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0.0 alliances already pay a vast "tax" in the form of POS maintenance. 1 billion for a deathstar plus ~300m/month in ice and NPC goods. And 1 sov POS is the bare minimum; important systems like station systems need at least 6.

And it's not just the ISK; someone has to haul and deliver all that fuel, on time and the right amounts.

Frankly, just paying some ISK will be a welcome relief

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Originally by: Atrei Capital

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Originally by: Tuscanspeed

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Originally by: Alternative Character

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I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it.

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And then some of us just want to play and not be bothered by the patheticness that is a player run corp.

I have no desire to join a player corp. This change won't change that.

I could care less about the ISK loss. I'd like to see the tithe actually do something if you want to spin it as paying Concord, since Concord cannot protect me even in highsec.

Spin it how you will CCP. The change is stupid. And won't solve the non problem you perceive as a problem. If it's botting you want to cut down on, there are far better solutions.

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Preach brother! How dare they make you play with other people in an online game!

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Originally by: Tippia

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àand also quite obtuse are my replies. i just throw out random sentences and make no sense.

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Originally by: Tippia

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If i could read i would have read how Ccp said themselves that they made the change because they believe it might get people out of npc corporations. I am sorry for posting all this crap, I should really take a class and learn reading properly.

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP

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Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp.

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Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it?

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.

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Originally by: Daemonspirit

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.

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Ok, lets get one thing straight...

You will still be entirely safe, even if you make a 1 man corp. However, YOU, personally Julian, may have made enough of an ass of yourself here to attract some war-decs with comments like the above...

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.

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you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set).
you dont don¦t want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level.

It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children.

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Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game.

And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy.

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point.

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Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.

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These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.

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Originally by: Uronksur SuthWell, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? [:?

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You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected.

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now.

And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own.

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.

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The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs.

And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own.

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Originally by: Hythloday

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Quote:

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Change does not achieve the goal.

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Originally by: Hythloday

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There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join.

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Originally by: Hythloday

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Oh well then if its such an inconsequential change, why are so many people *****ing about it?

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Originally by: PostWithYourAlt

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This Thread keeps being dragged off topic into a hatred PVE vrs. PVP war in a way that makes
the pvp crowd seem blinded against what the real issue is.

CCP Eris and CCP Soundwave(as it seems) are proposing a fix to a symptom
instead of proposing a fix to the yet not even determined cause.

The "fix" will naturally not have the desired effect and thus is not even
a fix but rather just a "random change".

The critic is that we as players want CCP Gamedesigners to act thoughtfull and make
changes to the game that actually mean something.

Actual fixes that fix actual problems.

All the "I am PVP" and "I am PVE" attitutes aside, everyone will agree that the
game does not profit from half thought through unmeaningfull changes.

You should all be thankfull to the guys raising this in demonstration of their
protest to CCP regarding this kind of workflow within their game design deparment.
The next miscue "fix" could be impacting you too.

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Originally by: Hythloday

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Originally by: Carcosa Hali

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It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference.

Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes.

Good change.

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Originally by: X Kent

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11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy.
Tax should be 20%-25%

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 19:24:24
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway.

By the way, CCP never said all NPC corp members are into RMT. However, since it "is" a widespread problem in NPC corps this step also helps to address this issue. Bonus points.

In the many years since beta I have often been seriously affected by game play changes far more sweeping than this. Frankly, this in nothing... a tempest in a tea cup if you will. The effect on people in NPC corps is minimal at best (you can reference people using this same point as an arguement not to do it), and has had pretty much universal support including many people that are still in NPC corps. This is an inducement, and a balancing, nothing more. Happens all the time in this game, as it should.
And as far a CCP "justifying and explaining" their decision... you got a concise statement. I'm afraid they aren't going to post the meeting notes from the last few months for your perusal. If it were a big deal they might go more in depth, but tbh it is not.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Quote:

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Saying this step addresses the issue of rmt trading is complete nonsense. 11% more tax address RMT trading ? how ?

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Because that 11% takes a bite out of their real money, which makes it harder for them to compete with legitamate alternatives among other things.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 22:09:35
Still haven't looked the meaning of I see. (Not you slade).

If you do a little research, and apply a little logic, you'll eventually figure it out. I have faith in you.

And yes, you have made it painfully obvious that being credible means nothing to you. Well done.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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PrismX used to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention.

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Originally by: pussnheels

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one question or clarification, does this also include FW npc corporations ?

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Originally by: Oddymandius

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Edited by: Oddymandius on 24/09/2009 08:56:40

The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. The shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency - they're complaining about having something taken away that they also admit they don't really care about.

Great idea CCP.

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Originally by: Joe

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Its pretty simple. They're going to increase the registration fee for corp and Alliance creation

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Originally by: Daemonspirit

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Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 15:23:34
Eve needs an online data base of Corps currently recruiting. Bumpable weekly, no activity in 10 days automatically cancels the post.

And it needs to be part of the tutorial.

vOv thats my idea. Is my idea any more effective at making someone move who doesn't want to?

edit: Sorry - "In game" database...

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Originally by: DarkFollower

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Are you guys kidding me , are people actually upset of 100k isk ?

i don't really get what's the big fuss about this , are you guys that greedy that you look at the few millions you lose to tax when you are making hundreds of millions in a few hours

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11

Originally by: Doddy

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand.

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TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps.

The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly".

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My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close.

You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one".

I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash.

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Strange, my corp took on a few nubs barely out of the tutorial so that we had pilots who we could mould into pvp right away and not worry about them being rich but clueless. If we treated every new player like dirt then we would never expand.

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Originally by: Bjron

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28 pages about a 11% tax on internet play money.


Really people, its fake money, if this was a 11% tax on real money, then I can see it, but 11% on play money?


O.K, Now I know, its very hard for some of you to do this, but just let me get it out.


If after this tax comes in, a person joins, GUESS WHAT??????!!!!! THEY WONT know about the way it was before taxes!!

WOW, what a concept!!!!
So it will be the same.


OH NOES!!!!!! eleven!!!!!!!!!11111111

MY INTERNET PLAY MONIES!!!!!!!

I remember when I used to have nothing better to woory about then the next buff/nerf or change back in school when I was playing EQ.


ITS A FRICKING GAME!!!

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Hi,

Thanks for the bump.

You can find multiple answers to your Question inbetween pages 1 and 26 of this thread.

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Originally by: bitters much

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The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov.

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Originally by: Bjron

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this is a game

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Originally by: bitters much

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The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov.

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

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We will be keeping a close watch to what happens when this change hits tq

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Hi.
How about releasing a public statistic.

One before the change hits TQ, and one after the change. Data would include: Number of players, Number of Players in Player-Corps (Corps > 5 Members), Number of Players in NPC Corps, Number of Players in Player-Corps < 5 Members.

I would be very interested in theese and I believe quite a few other people from this and the two other threads aswell.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Quote:

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You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around.

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Sorry, but I have to point out two things.

The point that was made about your earning your money from agents (or whatever), is correct. Your NPC corp is your Government (essentially the guardian of your civil liberties).

That aside though, think about where that money comes from that your Corp pays you in RL. The fact of the matter is, you help earn a lot more money for your RL corp than your RL corp is paying you. Otherwise you would no longer be employed.

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Originally by: Bjron

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WE ARE GO for page 30!

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Bjron

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WE ARE GO for page 30!

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Hard to belive this got moar tears than the moros nerf

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Originally by: Bjron

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Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:36:26
successful troll is successful




mmmm I love the attention.

But on topic.

Really, how can 11% tax hurt anyone that much?
If the tax will have no effect that why QQ about it?
Whining and crying about it is not going to make anything change.
If it does affect you, then make a 1 man corp?

problem solved.

Edit, I r tard.

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Originally by: Bjron

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got to page 14

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: Bjron

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got to page 14

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Great. Your making progress.

Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because
you do not manage to read past page 14.

Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are
only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ?

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I have yet to see you put down anything constructive, even your trolling is sub par.

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Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

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I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer.

If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave?

Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE.

In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return.

With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way.


If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income.

It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something.

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Why are you encouraging 1 man corps?

Because that is the only reasonable move if someone does not like your tax. How does that make game better?

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Originally by: Bjron

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if I wanted to play space ships offline, i would play free lancer, or Privateer 2, or any of the many space games that are single player.
Why play a mmo by your self? I thought the point of a MMo was to play with others?

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Originally by: goazer

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Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?

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Originally by: Serge Bastana

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I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens

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Originally by: IVeige

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Originally by: Bjron

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27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?

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Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ??????

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Originally by: IVeige

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: IVeige

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Originally by: Bjron

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27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?

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Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ??????

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its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesn¦t matter at all. it¦s about unintelligent game design.

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Explain why is it unintelligent ?

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